Tombstone, Arizona: The Town too Tough to Die

Right after we got our Airstream back from the dealer in Tucson, we headed out to visit Tombstone. Our first couple nights were spent at the Tombstone RV Park which is a mile or two before you get to town on Hwy 80 from the north, and then ended up moving to Stampede RV Park which is right at the end of Allen street about 3 blocks from all the action in town.

Allen street is not the main street through Tombstone, but it’s the main street for anything to do and has been preserved and/or reconstructed to look like Tombstone was in the old days. There’s wooden sidewalks and the street is closed to traffic although the horse-drawn wagons and stagecoaches are allowed, as are anyone on horseback.

For you with short attention spans, here’s the requisite photos. Just don’t forget to read our experience which continues below.

Tombstone has been one of our favorite places to visit. I was a bit worried that we’d get bored of the touristy small town feel being there for 6 days but that wasn’t the case at all. Once we moved to the spot in town, we were able to walk to everything and left the truck hitched to the trailer the entire time.

Everyone we met in Tombstone was very friendly. There weren’t too many young locals, mostly older folks who either had been brought up around the area and stuck around, or moved out to only move back later in life. Everyone said hello when you walked by, and even the people driving by as we walked the neighborhoods would waive a hello. A far cry from the history of being a rowdy town with gunslingers for sure.

One of the folks at the Stampede RV park pulled in next to us in his pickup truck with no camper, trailer or motorhome. At first I thought he might sleep in the back in the canopy, but soon he was out there setting up his tent. I stopped by a little later on to say hello to our new neighbor for the night and asked if he wanted to borrow one of our electric heaters for the night since it was consistently around 25 degrees during the night. It’s amazing how the desert can swing 60 to 70 degrees between night and day. He politely declined and proceeded to explain to me his setup that would keep him warm, but I think he was doing it mostly to make me feel like by not forcing the heater on him that he’d freeze in the night. I don’t know how many times he’d done that before, but he was set up quite well to weather the night in the cold. Turns out his name was Bill, and he’s a writer that specializes in the Southwest and lives in Tucson. Bill had just started a fire in a pit that he’d borrowed from the park and invited me to hang out next to the fire with him. We sat for somewhere around 2 or 3 hours chit chatting by the fire pit which we agreed looked like it was made out of an old washing machine drum talking about different life experiences; Bill had lived and worked in Mexico for a while, traveled to Cuba officially via the channels available to reporters and overall had lots of interesting stuff to share.

Our routine in Tombstone saw us going for a few walks per day since it only took about 8 minutes to walk the length of Allen street starting from our spot at Stampede. I resealed the rest of the windows on the Airstream in preparation for the rain forecasted for this week and we started getting caught up with our online life now that we were back in internet range again. We acted like tourists and watched the street show of the Earps’ getting ready to chase the Cowboys gang out of town, which ended up with a gunfight at the OK Corral, where you had to pay to see the show. We skipped that part, but I have to say they did quite a good job from what we saw, and baited a lot of people to go to the show. We took a stagecoach ride pulled by mules. We pet horses we met in town.

We listened to live music a couple nights. The first night was a jam session where anybody (or maybe anybody who they knew) could bring their instruments and about 8 of them sat in a circle and played tunes, taking turns picking the song to play. The second night had one of the folks from the jam session, Doc, playing his saxophone accompanied by a 95 year old man named Gene on the keyboard. It was awesome to watch them since one would just start playing a song and then the other would join in once he recognized what song it was. They never said anything about what song it was before they played it, and usually explained some history about the song after they were done. Doc, the sax player went to school at U of O and we struck up a conversation when he saw me wearing my Oregon shirt.

On our last day there, the entire town’s power grid went down in the afternoon. I don’t know for sure, but speculated that someone probably hit a power pole on the highway, and the locals said that’s usually the case when the whole town loses power. Sounds like it happens more than occasionally. Everyone was still having a great time and instead of ringing things up on their computerized systems they were writing hand receipts and dealing in cash. No one was even complaining, and some places that were darker inside started lighting up candles. It was kind of fun for since it made it feel even more authentically old, and the power was only out for about 3 hours total.

I have to say Tombstone was nothing like I expected. I figured it would be a complete tourist trap (it still was in some ways) where the locals were there only to get your money but it doesn’t feel like that at all. The locals and tourists mingle more than any place else I have seen in my life. There didn’t seem to be local hangouts where the tourists didn’t go or where I didn’t feel welcome or even mildly out of place. Lots of the people worked in some tourism related service whether it was food, hospitality, retail shops or one of the reenactment or tour gigs but at the end of the day they went to the same places to hang out and were happy to be a part of the culture of the town. Many of them embraced the heritage of the town and dressed the part, while others dressed the part only because that’s how they’d been dressed by their parents. A few people carried guns on their belt, only a few were the old style cowboy guns and based on the dress of those people I guessed they were part of a reenactment. A couple others had semiautomatic pistols stuck in their shoulder or belt holsters and looked more like modern day cowboys. Then there were the folks who rented a wardrobe for a day and walked around all decked out like fancy 1800’s folks. All in all, it put off a cool vibe of authenticity.

One of the locals told me that the movie Tombstone (which is pretty much playing on every TV in town and immediately started again the minute it ends) really put them on the map as a tourist attraction. Before then there had been people visiting but now it’s much more and doesn’t seem to be slowing down too much other than the economic situation that has been hitting everyone.

Sadly, much of what used to be Tombstone is gone, and the majority of what tourists come for is Allen street so you don’t feel super immersed in the old town life. Apparently there were 18,000 people in Tombstone at it’s peak, and now it’s less than 1800. At least according to our stagecoach tour driver. Most of the really old buildings are gone, although there are still enough to make you feel like it’s authentic even with a number of 50’s and 60’s constructed buildings mixed in the surrounding neighborhood, so they must not have had any historic development requirements to keep new construction looking as much like the old style as possible. There’s lots of stuff for sale there, and property is quite cheap, especially for a tourist town. Not much new construction here for years, although there is some. I would guess the most of the new construction were country homes outside the town from what I saw. Except for of course the government buildings. Those always seem to be the nicest in small towns – the visitors center, the nearly brand new post office, and so on.

If you’re in the Tucson area, it’s a little over an hour’s drive to Tombstone and can easily be a day trip. I highly recommend it, although it’s better to stay for a few nights to really get the feel of it. There’s lots of lodgin options from B&B’s and Inns to RV park, a biker-run biker-hotel (the harley kind, not the hippie pedal-yourself kind) and even a Best Western that looked cool from the outside and a Holiday Inn Express although both of these are more than a little walk north of the town itself.

Cactus Country RV Park in Tucson, Arizona

After Sedona we stopped in Tucson and stayed at the Cactus Country RV Park for 2 days (photos at the bottom of this post) and one day in a Holiday Inn. Tucson kinda didn’t impress me at all. It was just like Phoenix except not nearly as nice. I’ve been there once before, in a nicer part of town but even that time it wasn’t great.

We would have gotten on the road much quicker, but the Airstream was in for service at the only dealer in Arizona, and if we would have moved on then the next dealer choice on our route is in Texas which would have been a long way. Turns out it was a good thing we had this appointment. On our way from the RV park to the dealer which was about 12 miles away, the rear cabinet above the bed decided it was done hanging on for dear life to the 2 (only 2!) screws holding the bottom of it in place and jumped on to the bed. We got it fixed, along with some routine service, a new vent fan cover so we can have the fan open even if it’s raining, fixed the toilet so the bowl seal holds water and some other misc things. Instead of pulling the trailer back & forth for the night so we could stay in it, we just opted to find a hotel. Lucky for us there was some gem show (I’m talking bead type gems, not where Tom Shane buys his diamonds directly from the supplier) so even the budget hotels that are normally $49/night were up to $150 or so.

Cactus Country RV Park is nothing special. It’s out in the desert SE of Tucson about 8 miles on I-10. They are surrounded by desert, yet the spots are quite close. As one might expect in this part of the country, the lots were gravel but the roads in the park were paved. Our lot was not level, and depending how I parked it would have been 2-3 inches off side to side but I managed to get it around 1.5 inches and roll up on the trusty 2×6 blocks and it did okay.

The showers and bathrooms are dated but clean although they had a peculiar smell of some kind of detergent I couldn’t place. The pool is nice but not fancy, and they had a small hot tub too. At least they had them open, some places thought it was “too cold” to have their pools open since it was only 68-ish during the day.

Driving to the Grand Canyon

I passed on the trip to the Grand Canyon – again – but here are some pictures that The Girl took when she went while we were in Sedona. I’ve drive within 2 hours of it something like 10 times or more but never really had the desire to go check it out. Sure, it looks amazing in pictures, but I just don’t feel the need to drive 4-5 in a day just hours to look at something for a little bit and then head right back. One of these days when we have more time and plan to stay and camp for a few days, I’ll get to see it in person. In the mean time I’ll just look at some of these photos.

Visiting Jerome, Arizona

Jerome is a small little town between Prescott and Sedona and takes about 25-30 minutes to get to from downtown Sedona. The road to Prescott seems very narrow and windy on the map but we didn’t check it out so I don’t know how long that would take.

Here’s some photos of the area so you can get an idea what it’s like, but don’t skip reading more about Jerome below.

Jerome was built literally on the side of the hill 1883. That must have been a whole lot of fun to haul materials up the hillside, even by horse or mule carts. If you lived in Jerome and walked everywhere, you’d for sure stay in good shape. Combine that with the additional amount of blood that people who live in high elevations have, and you’ll soon be as strong as the Mongol warriors. I didn’t get a chance to snap a photo, but one of the local residents was an old lady that looked to be in her upper 80’s and was plodding steadily up the hill with her walker. I was seriously impressed! She wasn’t going nearly as fast as I was, but she also didn’t seem to be out of breath like I was. I blame that on the 5000+ foot elevation even though it might have something to do with my fitness level – or lack thereof.

There is a state park that goes out onto what I call a peninsula of land but unfortunately that was closed when we went so I can’t say anything about that. From a distance across the valley it looked like a large building that might have had a museum and a big viewpoint / parking area but not the land area to camp or hang out in like a lot of other state parks have. However there was a mine shaft visitors area that was open so we were able to check that out, and talk to the attendant there who explained a lot of the history of it.

If you’re going to be in the Sedona/Prescott/Flagstaff or even North Phoenix area a day trip to Jerome is worth it.

A Month in Phoenix

We are finally back on the road again after spending a whole month in Phoenix. Well, kind of on the road. We headed up to Sedona to spend a week with family that came to visit us and had a timeshare up there, so we moved about 2 hours north and then stopped for a week again.

At first I was not looking forward to going to Sedona because the weather had been cold and I’m trying to find the summer we missed back home, as soon as humanly possible. It didn’t take long to change my mind. The Sedona area is absolutely beautiful – stay tuned to check out some of the pictures of Sedona, Arizona that we’ll post very soon.

Meanwhile, back in Phoenix…. (pictures at the bottom of this post)

A month seems like a long time to sit in one spot now. It’s weird being on the road and then stopping. You feel like life is going on around you and you’re just sitting still. We picked Deserts Edge RV Park in Phoenix for our month long camp out, and it was pretty awesome as far as RV parks go. Review to follow soon. The first week it seemed really long to be in one spot since I knew that we’d be there for another 3 weeks. We arrived on the 15th of December and I think watching the hustle and bustle of everyone getting ready for their consumerist celebration of Christmas while we had a nice slow pace of life also made it seem disproportionately longer. I thought it was quite refreshing to avoid being a part of the “stuff” of Christmas and be able to spend some time with my lovely lady alone.

On Christmas eve we went out to T. Cook’s which is the restaurant at a very awesome meditteranean style hotel well known for excellent food and has been rated as the best brunch in Phoenix. Our service was apparently slow to their standards so they comp-ed us for 2 appetizers and desert. They didn’t know we are living a lifestyle of rolling island time, and had no problem with the service at all, but who’s going to say no to free awesome food? Basically all we had to pay for was a few glasses of wine.

After this we went over to our friends family’s house for food and to hang out. We sang carols, which at first I was dreading but turned out to be fun. There was a big group of family and friends and we split the 12 Days of Christmas song so each person had their own role and had to sing it every time it came around. Some people were awesome, and some people were hilarious. It was super fun and if I’m ever around a big group of people for Christmas again I’m definitely going to suggest it to the group.

We spent time hanging out with friends, cooking ribs on a smoker, playing poker, ate awesome sushi, visited a fantastic wine bar with the best deserts evar, played racquetball, chilling at friends houses, swimming at the pool and relaxing in the hot tub, visiting the Phoenix Zoo, taking the dogs on walks and to the park, and overall enjoying a relaxing pace of life. We did have some friends from back home come to the Oregon v Auburn football game and we tried to hang out with them a couple times but it didn’t work out, and they dissed us pretty hard. Oh well. Overall, it’s hard to get used to relaxing at first, but after some time it’s pretty nice and you wonder how come you didn’t do this sooner.

But if you think you can escape the troubles of life, think again. They will find you wherever you are. They might not be the same troubles, but you’ll have something to deal with. In our case, about 5 days before we were scheduled to roll out of Phoenix our 2004 Chevy Duramax started blowing smoke out the exhaust. After a bit of online research (aka self diagnosis) it seems this is a common problem with the LB7 Duramax engine in trucks from 2001-2004 where the injectors will fail. Chevy has extended it’s warranty for those injectors to 200k miles or 7 years from the original delivery date of the truck. We fell within that time period, but GM denied our warranty claim and we got stuck with a $2000 bill to fix 4 of them. And that’s a cheap price! I bought the injectors online and had them overnighted to me, then installed at Strictly Diesel in Phoenix who treated me very well. Their service was 100 times better than any Chevy dealer I have ever been to. Keep in mind, there are 8 in this truck so the other 4 could have problems at any time in the future. I called GM’s customer service which turns out to be in Malaysia and finally was able to talk to someone in Detroit but they said they could not help me and “were not at liberty to say why” which is a total joke. Don’t buy a Chevy, they don’t stand behind their products. No wonder they loose market share to companies like Toyota who recall anything and everything that’s a problem. At least they fix the issues with no hassles. Anyway, the point is that you’ll still have to pay what my friend Mike calls a “life tax” even when you’re living the dream.

Awesome Amerixican Food at San Felipe Cantina in Desert Ridge:

A day trip to Scottsdale or Snottsdale as the non-Scottsdale locals call it:

Dos Gringos in Old Town Scottsdale.

Totally worth a visit. Great deals on really good Mexican food every day of the week, plus they let you take your dog in as long as you sit in one of the perimeter booths outside. They have other locations in Arizona too.

Phoenix Dog Parks:

Phoenix has a number of official “dog parks” most of which are nothing more than a regular park that has a fenced area for dogs. Most of them have separate sections for small dogs and large dogs which is pretty stupid – cause all dog fights are small dogs versus big dogs. Ya right. Almost every park that we went to had huge signs all over the place that explained how The Man is gonna ticket you big time if you get caught with your dog off the leash at a regular park. Ironically, most parks had more people with dogs (on leash) than people or kids using the park. Well, we found a decent sized park that was just down the street (in Phoenix that means about 4 miles) from where we were staying that didn’t have signs at all. Must have been government budget cuts that stopped them from posting signs. At any rate, we figured if someone said something we’d play stupid tourist and say there were no signs and proceeded to take the dogs there about 4-5 days per week. No one ever said anything, and I think Phoenix cops have a lot more important stuff to do than ticket people playing fetch with their Golden Retrievers. Seems like there’s about 1/10th the amount of cops in Phoenix than back home anyway.

We also took the dogs to a vet called Deer Creek Animal Hospital for some things, and found that they had a doggie daycare which has 1 acre of running space behind their building, and they let the dogs in to the clinic behind the reception counter whenever they want. They loved it!

Outdoor Lifestyle Prevails:

Say what you want about Phoenix – and their intolerable heat in the summer but they do have something like 8 months of the year where you can be outside. In the super hot summers, you can still be outside at night when it’s 90 degrees and pitch black. Outdoor malls and restaurants with patios are commonplace, and also actually usable for most of the year. This one has a HUGE outdoor fireplace that no doubt burns an entire dinosaur worth of fossil fuel per day, but on those chilly December days where it barely reaches 60 the locals probably love it. Here’s a few photos of Desert Ridge which has a cool outdoor corridor that feels much nicer than any indoor mall ever has, back in the Pacific North Wet.

Phoenix Zoo Pictures

The other day one of our neighbors gave us 2 free tickets to the Phoenix Zoo, so we went and checked it out. It’s actually quite nice, and we were impressed by everything they had going on. They did miss some things that we had grown accustomed to, such as polar bears and seals and penguins for example, but it wasn’t a huge surprise. Who could expect these arctic and water creatures to do very well in the Arizona hot summer?

One big surprise to me was the Galapagos Turtles which are huge. The one that was there was about 2 feet by 3 feet and 2 feet thick. You’ll see it in one of the the pictures below, it looks almost more like a statue or a boulder on wheels. It’s truly massive for a turtle. They have a super slow metabolism and can apparantly survive desert types of conditions for weeks on end outside of water.

Smoking Some Ribs At The Trailer Park

A couple nights ago we had some friends over to our “house” for the evening, so I decided to smoke some ribs. After visiting Uncle Billy’s in Austin and having just about the best dry ribs I have ever eaten, I came up with a rub that I’ve been playing around with. It’s not a very sophisticated process, I just go through the spice bin and grab the stuff that I think would sound good. I really need to look up what others are doing and spend some time looking for spices at the store, but until then this has been working.

We have an el-cheapo Brinkman smoker that I picked up from Home Depot last summer for use at home and have been carting around. It’s light weight and I can store some of the supplies inside it so it’s not a huge pain, but I am starting to get dissatisified with how it cooks. The problem is that there’s no dampers at all so you can’t control the temperature very well, and the way the lid sits on top LOTS of smoke escapes. I know you need some to travel out, but you also want to be able to control how much.

So now we need to find a new smoker. We have a cheaply-built-but-not-as-cheap-as-it-should-have-been-to-buy Coleman propane stove/grill combo and for just charring up some chicken or even steaks it works slightly worse than OK as long as you watch it and move the meat around to avoid or take advantage of the hot spots. I like the idea of a grill/stove combo though, and if I were to do it again I would get the one made by Camp Chef and try my luck with that one. My biggest complaint about the Coleman is that the gas control valves/dials have about 4 full turns in them, but the difference between off and full takes only about 1/16 of one turn. I think they design it that way on purpose so everyone has to buy a lot of disposable Coleman propane bottles.

I’d like to find a smoker that can also be used as a charcoal grill when I want to put in the effort to make things taste better. Lately I have been eying the Old Smokey 14-inch. It’s not a true smoker, but I wonder if I can’t make it work. I don’t plan on smoking sausage, just ribs mostly and maybe even a brisket one of these days. It’s small, light and durable and kind of an iconic BBQ, and the price is right for sure. I just don’t know if I’ll end up having buyers remorse again, and wish I would have gone for something like the Weber Smokey Mountain instead. I’ll keep thinking about it I guess, till I make up my mind. If any ya’ll (getting ready for Texas) have any suggestions I’d love to hear them. Preferably I’d like charcoal fired and something that works both as a grill or a smoker, although smoker only would be acceptable. Electric won’t work since we will be in places with no power, and propane is okay but I’d really have to like the size and quality of it since we already have a propane grill and I really prefer the flavor from charcoal much more.

If you’re curious about what I use for the rub, here is a list of ingredients:

  • Brown sugar
  • Oregano
  • Garlic powder
  • Onion powder
  • Chili powder
  • Garlic salt
  • Paprika
  • Ground black pepper
  • Cinnamon
  • Nutmeg

I don’t measure the amounts so you’ll have to play with that, but don’t go dumping equal parts of everything. I can say there’s more brown sugar than any of the other things since it clumps up easily and I think it helps to keep the bitter edge off the taste. Maybe next time I’ll measure them out (prolly not, don’t hold your breath)

Where To Go Next?

I just added a new page to the site called where next, you’ll see it on the top navigation bar across the site. It’s not meant to be a route map of where to go, or even a definitive list of where to go, but just some pins I’ve been throwing on a map to keep track of specific recommendations of places to check out or places that I’ve wanted to go explore for some time.

If you have any suggestions, feel free to leave them in the comments or fill out the contact form on the about page.

Crossing into Los Algodones, Mexico

I had never heard of the little border crossing town of Los Algodones, Mexico until about a month before we left on our trip. Most people, or most gringos at least just call it Algodones, and it is a bustling little town full of shopping, pharmacias, dentists and other cheaper-in-Mexico services and shops that make it a very popular place with predominantly the retiree crowd. December is shoulder season there and I hear February is crazy busy, according to the shop keepers and RV park peeps we talked to.

No signs of border-town-drug-warfare anywhere although I had hatched a perfect escape and evade plan so if it would come down to it, I was ready and on alert.

Courtyard shops by the restaurant we ate at where I got my new favorite shirt which is no longer my favorite shirt anymore because I promptly stained it and it won't bleach out. :(

Getting into Algodones is very easy, much more so than I thought it would be. If you’re just going to spend the day or a few hours there, by far the best option is to walk across the border. There’s a fenced and gated parking lot that I think is run by the US Border Patrol right at the crossing and it costs $5 for the day for cars, more for  trailers and motorhomes but they’re welcome too. When we went the lot was about 1/4 full or less.

You can drive across the border too, and it looked like there was 1 or 2 lanes going in with a checkpoint. We showed up around 2pm so the inbound traffic to Mexico was completely nonexistent. People recommended we go in at 11am because that’s when a lot of the shops – especially the pharmacias – open and you can get your stuff, have plenty of time for lunch and shopping and get back in line around 4pm to cross into the US. We felt like going that day instead of waiting for the next one, so we decided to check it out and going in at 2pm was just fine, if not better to avoid the crowds of gringos looking to get their shopping on.

So to actually cross the border, you walk out of the parking lot next to the ATM machine and turn right to walk down the cement ramp. The ramp itself is about 100 feet or so long, and you get to a place where there’s a shack building on your left and it routes you back around a couple other buildings. It feels like you’re walking in the back door of a shopping center. Then you take another 8 steps and you’re in between a few stores in this little courtyard type of thing. There was no one around when we did this, so it felt really eerie, especially the part when you take another 4 steps to be on the sidewalk and see the backs of no less than 12 Federale Police officers who are trying to entertain themselves and not be bored. Yep, there’s no booth to stop at or anything. I guess Mexico isn’t too afraid of gringos sneaking across the border. I’ll have to remember this if the US economy totally collapses and I need to make a run to get away from it all.

By car I’m sure the process will be different, but in my experience no one has been less welcoming into a country than US Immigrations and Customs Enforcement agents, so I doubt you’ll have any trouble if you read up and get your paperwork in order. The other thing to remember is a saying posted on one of the only signs on the way into Mexico, written in Spanish and conveniently translated to English, which said “The guns its illegal in Mexico” so leave that burner at home before you cross.

Coming back was a different story. There was a line of cars about 4 blocks long that we could see, and then the line turned the corner. Car crossing isn’t worth it unless you plan to stay a while. Walking back you’re funneled down another walkway, this one has concrete walls once you enter the funnel and there’s a bunch of last-ditch-merchants peddling their wares, many of whom are short, old, toothless ladies peddling chicklets and know only one English word; money. I only took about $100 when we went in, and that got spent almost instantly at the pharmacia where they’ll sell you almost anything over the counter except for narcotics which you need a prescription for, although I would be surprised if there wasn’t a handy Mexican doctor that spends most of his day writing prescriptions to gringos who are in so much pain they can barely walk across the border each morning. So I didn’t have anything left for the ladies who I wish I would have a few dollars for, although my wonderful lady friend on this journey did have a few, and bless her soft heart she gave them some.

When the crossing back in is busy, I expect that there would be a long line down this walkway into the ICE checkpoint, but we walked right in and had 1 person in line in front of us. We were soon called to the next available, friendly, smiling face that welcomed us back to the US with the words “One person at a time! One person at a time!” looking at us and the dude behind us who tailed us right to the counter. I told her that the lady and I were traveling together, to which she repeated “On person at a time!” to the dude behind us, then turned to us and said “what was your purpose of the trip outside America.” without so much a smile or a greeting of any kind, which made me feel right at home and I knew I was at a US border crossing. Ah! Home safe at last away from those scary Mexicans.

For those of you Homeland Security goons reading this blog post due to the fact it no doubt triggered all sorts of filters with the words like “Obama, border, Mexico, Narcotics, Guns, run away” included in it, you could at least get some friendly people to employ in the government, once in a while in positions where they deal with the public, it would be nice for a change.

We didn’t take a lot of photos while in Algodones because I was too busy planning my drug-lord-warfare-escape-plan, and I generally don’t want to look like a tourist and flashing my camera, cell phone, wad of money, wearing lots of jewelry and all that stuff (even though I SO do love jewelry) but here are a few that we did take which will no doubt be uninteresting to anyone who doesn’t know us, and even then probably less than marginally interesting to those who do.